Re: Re: ALL taxation is slavery

Posted by Octothorn on August 17, 2004 at 21:14:59:

In Reply to: Re: ALL taxation is slavery posted by Lemmalemmo on June 06, 2004 at 14:42:01:

: As a Classical Liberal I would agree that
: taxation, as a general rule, amounts to
: slavery. However, you go too far.

No, I don't believe so.

Taxation, as with slavery, is coercive. Voluntarism is freedom.

Any proclaimed "good" that can only be paid for by coercion is a "good" we can do without.

Government does not have the power to create wealth, only to consume it. Coercive government must first take more wealth than it is giving away. Coercive government is a claim to ownership, however partial, of individuals, and is therefore slavery. Coercive communist and socialist states are demonstrations of this fact taken to the absolute extreme.

"Socialists eventually run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher

"Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy" -- Mao Tse-Tung

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" -- Mao Tse-Tung

If people really want healthcare and education (voting patterns indicate this is true), then that is what people will pay for.

: Taxation is not simply about equity

I never said it was, I don't even think it is about "equity", unless it is to make us all equally poor.

Here are a few quotes that reflect what I do think taxaton is all about.

"There is only one way to kill capitalism; by taxes, taxes, and more taxes." -- Karl Marx

"Government cannot make a man richer, but it can make him poorer" -- Lud von Mises

"We contend that for any nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle" -- Winston Churchill

: - it's also about correcting market failures
: e.g. Pigouvian taxes on environmental
: externalities,

These environmental externalities, perhaps you could outline what a few of them are, the ones you are thinking of, why you think they can only be paid for by government coercion, and why you think they can not be paid for by free-market voluntarism?

: the provision of Public goods which would be
: inefficiently provided by the marketplace,

The openness of the free market economy permits competition. Such a market encourages greater, not lesser efficiency.

The more efficient producer does the best, and the least efficient disappears.

I see no good that can not be provided more efficiently by voluntarism than by government coercion.

: Pigouvian subsidies to merit goods such as
: Education and Health which would again be
: inefficiently provided by the market.

That's your theory.

However, in the real world people vote time and time again in favor of education and health.

If government ceased taxing for and funding these goods, people would still want them.

Voluntarism already provides such services to some extent, despite anticompetitive government practices in these fields.

A market free of coercion would be able to provide those goods at lower cost than government can.

This is logical, since there is no competitive pricing pressure on government services. The deep pockets of unlimited taxation provided subsidies can undercut free market services, providing them at below cost to the end user, but at great expense to the taxpayer.

Any good desired by the public can be paid for more efficiently by voluntarism. The coercion of taxation comes at an additional cost, a cost that voluntarism does not incur.

Your suggestion is a vote for coercion. Coercion has the cost of implementing that coercion. Voluntarism has no such cost. Ergo, voluntarism can only be more efficient than coercion.

: Your sentiment is right, that there is far
: too much government spending and taxation;

Thank you, but in reality I am pointing out that taxation is coercive, and coercion is slavery.

Governments can spend all the money they like, so long as they acquire all of it through voluntary payments, and spend it all on non-initiative application of force.

: Police, armed forces etc. can't
: be funded efficiently though voluntary
: funding due to free-riding.

You are mistaken in what you seem to think I am saying. You may want to read my post again.

Free-market force providers (equivalent of police, millitary and judiciary) will lead to coercion of the general public, anarchy, civil war, and ultimately the destruction of civilised society.

In my previous post I spoke about voluntary government funding for the services you outline.

I agree we need responsive force to be provided by the government, but I do not agree that the only way is by taxation, which is coercive.

Free-riding exists in many places in the free-market anyhow. I can buy cross-country skis and ski manicured slopes all day without paying a penny for them;

I can ride my bicycle on the roads without paying a cent of petrol tax or registration. I can't do anything about the taxes that I pay for the roads, but a free market system wouldn't get those;

I can temporarily shelter from the rain or the heat or the cold in a supermarket and not buy anything;

: Just look at charity.

Yes, exactly my point! Private charity programs are the ultimate free-rider system, every end-user is a free-rider!

Thank-you for responding.

Follow Ups:

Post a Followup

Name:
E-Mail:

Subject: Re: Re: Re: ALL taxation is slavery

Comments:
: : As a Classical Liberal I would agree that : : taxation, as a general rule, amounts to : : slavery. However, you go too far. : No, I don't believe so. : Taxation, as with slavery, is coercive. Voluntarism is freedom. : Any proclaimed "good" that can only be paid for by coercion is a "good" we can do without. : Government does not have the power to create wealth, only to consume it. Coercive government must first take more wealth than it is giving away. Coercive government is a claim to ownership, however partial, of individuals, and is therefore slavery. Coercive communist and socialist states are demonstrations of this fact taken to the absolute extreme. : "Socialists eventually run out of other people's money." -- Margaret Thatcher : "Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy" -- Mao Tse-Tung : "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" -- Mao Tse-Tung : If people really want healthcare and education (voting patterns indicate this is true), then that is what people will pay for. : : Taxation is not simply about equity : I never said it was, I don't even think it is about "equity", unless it is to make us all equally poor. : Here are a few quotes that reflect what I do think taxaton is all about. : "There is only one way to kill capitalism; by taxes, taxes, and more taxes." -- Karl Marx : "Government cannot make a man richer, but it can make him poorer" -- Lud von Mises : "We contend that for any nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle" -- Winston Churchill : : - it's also about correcting market failures : : e.g. Pigouvian taxes on environmental : : externalities, : These environmental externalities, perhaps you could outline what a few of them are, the ones you are thinking of, why you think they can only be paid for by government coercion, and why you think they can not be paid for by free-market voluntarism? : : the provision of Public goods which would be : : inefficiently provided by the marketplace, : The openness of the free market economy permits competition. Such a market encourages greater, not lesser efficiency. : The more efficient producer does the best, and the least efficient disappears. : I see no good that can not be provided more efficiently by voluntarism than by government coercion. : : Pigouvian subsidies to merit goods such as : : Education and Health which would again be : : inefficiently provided by the market. : That's your theory. : However, in the real world people vote time and time again in favor of education and health. : If government ceased taxing for and funding these goods, people would still want them. : Voluntarism already provides such services to some extent, despite anticompetitive government practices in these fields. : A market free of coercion would be able to provide those goods at lower cost than government can. : This is logical, since there is no competitive pricing pressure on government services. The deep pockets of unlimited taxation provided subsidies can undercut free market services, providing them at below cost to the end user, but at great expense to the taxpayer. : Any good desired by the public can be paid for more efficiently by voluntarism. The coercion of taxation comes at an additional cost, a cost that voluntarism does not incur. : Your suggestion is a vote for coercion. Coercion has the cost of implementing that coercion. Voluntarism has no such cost. Ergo, voluntarism can only be more efficient than coercion. : : Your sentiment is right, that there is far : : too much government spending and taxation; : Thank you, but in reality I am pointing out that taxation is coercive, and coercion is slavery. : Governments can spend all the money they like, so long as they acquire all of it through voluntary payments, and spend it all on non-initiative application of force. : : Police, armed forces etc. can't : : be funded efficiently though voluntary : : funding due to free-riding. : You are mistaken in what you seem to think I am saying. You may want to read my post again. : Free-market force providers (equivalent of police, millitary and judiciary) will lead to coercion of the general public, anarchy, civil war, and ultimately the destruction of civilised society. : In my previous post I spoke about voluntary government funding for the services you outline. : I agree we need responsive force to be provided by the government, but I do not agree that the only way is by taxation, which is coercive. : Free-riding exists in many places in the free-market anyhow. I can buy cross-country skis and ski manicured slopes all day without paying a penny for them; : I can ride my bicycle on the roads without paying a cent of petrol tax or registration. I can't do anything about the taxes that I pay for the roads, but a free market system wouldn't get those; : I can temporarily shelter from the rain or the heat or the cold in a supermarket and not buy anything; : : Just look at charity. : Yes, exactly my point! Private charity programs are the ultimate free-rider system, every end-user is a free-rider! : Thank-you for responding.